illustrations in fanfiction

[nerakrose]

so, i'm sitting here and attempting to sketch out stuff for the tony/steve reverse big bang (which i'm terribly behind on) and got to thinking.

i don't think i've ever heard of a fanfic writer who didn't like fanart of their fic or illustrations with their fic, and i also don't think i've ever heard of a reader who didn't like illustrations within the fic they're reading.

but when it comes to actualfax novels out there in the "real world", i can't think of a single "adult novel" (i say "adult novels" not because i'm thinking of novels with erotic content, but novels that aren't aimed at children or young adults) that has illustrations in it. kiddie books have them in abundance and some YA novels have "ornaments" rather than illustrations - the artemis fowl novels come to mind, with the fairy symbols adorning the pages like framework.

illustrations within fiction in the "real world" seem to be...i don't want to say frowned upon, because that's not the wording i'm looking for, but it seems as if illustrations degrade the work. there's a picture in it? it must be a children's book! and therefore, logically, not fit for reading unless you're seven years old.

and what's really interesting to me is that this hasn't always been the case. you don't even need to go very far back in time to get illustrations within novels. so there's clearly been a shift in attitude over time and illustrations have been removed from the "proper adult literature" while it stays on as an identifying marker of children's books, to put it simply.

and then you have fanfiction, which is a whole genre of its own that defies and subverts a lot of do's and dont's in literature, and apparently also illustrations. not all fanfic illustrations are x-rated (the ones i'm making for the tony/steve reverse big bang most certainly aren't), even if many of them are (just as much of the fanfiction is x-rated). and i wonder, are illustrations of fanfiction just yet another way in which fanfiction as a genre looks at literature and goes "no, i don't care - i want this, and so be it"?

thoughts and comments are much appreciated! i'm interested in hearing what you've all got to say.

Comments

[nerakrose]

isn't it? :D

i get distracted too XD i spent lots of time studying the art when i come across it. sometimes i compare it with the text, sometimes i just stare at single details and wonder why the artist chose to put that in or whatever. :D at any rate, i've always thought that illustrations enhance the reading experience. seeing someone illustrate a scene in a certain way has always challenged me to review that certain scene - are we seeing it in the same way? in which ways do our views differ? etc.

same. XD i used to read LOTS of enid blyton books and those always had illustrations in them :D they were just black and white pencil or pen drawings, but i loved them. and the sherlock holmes stories had illustrations in them too. i also had a bunch of books from around and before ww2 which used to belong to my grandmother (they first belonged to her older siblings who were of reading age then, my grandmother was born in '43) and those had illustrations in them too. and they were adult novels for entertainment, no less.

[nerakrose]

teehee :D

yes! :D

i don't think there were handmade illustrations in them, just reprints of handmade illustrations? the books were just regular printed books. but they'd have an illustration at the beginning of each chapter and sometimes in the middle as well. i have some old secondhand books i've bought here in cph that have that as well, and most of them are from the 19th century around that time as well.

[nerakrose]

ahhh i see. :D haha well those books were romance and adventure novels. and often with some kind of moral lecture. for example i remember one about a girl from the country (from a religious family - her dad was the priest) who moved to the city and started drinking and sleeping around and then when she accepted god into her heart again and stopped sinning, she got together with the love of her life (this nice guy who she grew up with). those books didn't do much for feminism, in hindsight, but i loved them all back then. XD

[nerakrose]

i didn't have any of those. XD but it reminds me that i did have a couple of really good books with strong female characters and all. i remember one in particular about this girl who wanted to become a nurse. she went to school and did well and there was this hot doctor she liked and she had good friends, and the doctor liked her too, and she had internships various places, and at some point the doctor offers her to come work for him at his hospital but she says no because she wants to work in another hospital in another position. and he's cool with it and they get together in the end after all. :D

[nerakrose]

yeah. XD

[epithalamium]

Yeah. I just bought this 'Western/Steampunk' book which I picked up from the YA shelves and I was wondering if it really should have been on the YA shelf, but then there were illustrations inside, so I immediately thought, 'Oh, yeah, this is YA.' It used to be that pop literature (serials etc) had illustrations with them and no one really thought they were for kids (or exclusively for kids). Like, complete collections of the Sherlock Holmes stories won't really be complete without the original illustrations that came with them. But now I guess people are wont to think that illustrations in book = picture book = not serious literature.

I don't even know why. The only books published recently that I know have illustrations in them (and which people still took seriously) are Neil Gaiman's Stardust and The Dream Hunters (and even then some people think they're graphic novels because they're published by Vertigo, but they're not. They're illustrated novels) and Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel and The Ladies of Grace Adieu. All of which are from the fantasy genre, so maybe fantasy novels play more with literary formats than mainstream ones (duh?).

Which is to say, I never really thought about fanfic in that way, and it's really interesting! (Interesting enough that I'm wondering if it merits a graduate dissertation, but the possible lack of references is sort of pulling me back.)

[nerakrose]

I completely forgot about stardust having illustrations in them! that's true. but then that's marketed as YA, too, even if it's not really YA - or at least not exclusively YA.

I think it raises some interesting questions about comics and graphic novels as well. Comics, at least here, are viewed as "something for children", which is true in the case of Donald Duck, probably. But the Thor & Loki: Blood Brothers graphic novel I bought the other day? that's definitely not for children. (and take note: it was marketed as a graphic novel and not a comic.) I've had to combat this attitude when telling people "I read comics" or "I want spiderman bedsheets for christmas" because people inevitably will respond "but you're 25 years old!" as if I'm showing interest in something outside my age range.

I think it would be a really interesting dissertation. I'd love to read it if somebody wrote one. :D

[epithalamium]

My copy is the cheaper one by Harper, so no Charles Vess goodness for me. >.> And I guess it's simpler (read: more linear) than Neil Gaiman's other adult work, so I guess it can be considered YA by people.

Haha, the whole graphic novel vs comic book thing. XD I guess it's really that divide between say actual funnies (like Calvin and Hobbes) to superhero stories to stories that border on horror (like the Vertigo titles) that made the different terms necessary? I mean, I would probably say comics when talking about funny strip-type of material, comic books when talking about superhero-type material, and graphic novel when talking about Sandman. :P But right now, the divide between graphic novel and comic books really isn't that big any more. (And it really wasn't big to begin with? The 'biggest names' of the graphic novel world were inspired by comic books and wrote for comic books.)

Which is to say, I really hate it when people judge other people for reading comic books. :P I mean, I didn't even like comic books when I was a kid? I read Archies and all that crap, but not superhero stories, because I don't really get it? I mean, those people were basically adults (well, most of them) and they had adult troubles. If I wanted crime-fighting action, I would watch the animated series, but I wouldn't read the comic books. The humour, if there is any, is something a nine-year-old probably wouldn't get either. >.> So now I'm an adult with adult troubles, I sort of relate to the superhero comic books more? :P

eta: jump between 2nd and 3rd paragraph, transition is lacking. :P But I was talking not only about people who think comic books are 'for kids' but also about people who needed to hear the term 'graphic novel' to take comic books seriously. Literary snobs. >.>

[nerakrose]

the copy i read was from the library XD i dunno which it was.

probably? it's funny though. you actually get comic books for the strip too. all the garfield strips are collected in books, and i guess probably calvin and hobbes too. i used to read those two and pearls before swine (to the point where i cut them out of the newspaper to keep. i think i still have them. i meant to use them for creative purposes.)
and then you have comic books that are just...comic books. in sweden there's this comic book series called eva&adam about this boy and girl in school (7th through 9th grade i think) who like each other and become girlfriend&boyfriend and they have friends and they break up and get togther again and it's a really, really good comic book. they made a tv-series based on it as well. that one's def. YA, though i've half a mind to go check them out of the library and dvelve into them again. XD

i actually grew up with comic books. i read spiderman and superman comics from the 70s, i watched the batman cartoon on tv, i had a subscription for donald duck, i read lucky luke and tintin and i borrowed comic books from the library (such as the eva&adam i mentioned before, but also valhalla (which is awesome) and various other comic books). most of the comic books i read as a kid were aimed at kids or YA. but they've always been a natural part of reading for me, which is why i guess i never really had any negative feelings towards them? because i never had to be "introduced" to comics and never had to be told "it's actually for adults too" or anything of the sort, because i already knew it was readable, and already knew that comic books can tell really complex stories.

i know what you mean about adult troubles and comic books - the kiddie ones i used to read, i'd read these days as a form of escapism, because they're for entertainment (tintin!) and fun. they might have a moral lecture or a point or whatever, but they're not really ~deep or complex. it all depends on type of book. some superhero comics are aimed at a younger crowed (like the avengers adventure something whatever it is which is very kiddie in its approach) but then you've got ultimates, which i wouldn't want my little sister to read.

haha yeah. i feel kind of sorry for those people. when i meet them, i try to "educate" them in a way that doesn't make them feel stupid or lesser or anything for reading comic books. it doesn't always work. i'll just have to accept that not everyone is as openminded towards literature as i am. XD

[epithalamium]

Oh, yes! I sort of got addicted to the Far Side strips when I was at uni, but those things are super expensive! XD I only borrow copies from my friends. And the only 'slice of life' comics I've ever read are the Archie ones (aside from the indie ones I started reading when I was much older, which are about older people)... but Archie is usually just funny stuff (about American kids, lol) and not much about 'real life' at all. Eve & Adam sounds cool!

My uncle used to be a real comic book nut, and that was when I started reading Batman and Superman comic books. (He was more of a DC fan--the only Marvel thing he liked which he recced us were the Spider-Man comics, and I had to discover Marvel by myself after having watched the old Uncanny X-Men animated series.) AND YES, THAT BATMAN CARTOON! I remember pestering my mum to buy me this Catwoman comic, and when I read it I was wondering if she and the nun she lived with are lesbians. >.>

Also Tintin! My cousin gave me his old copies of those, and I think that was the first time I realised that comic books can even be that format? Like, not the light, super kiddie Archie or the more 'mature' superhero comic books, but something more like the novels I was reading. (I want to buy copies of the Tintin comics now.)

But I think yes, comics have always been there around us, and we actually read them, which is why we know that it's a type of literary medium that's not exclusively for kids. (I mean, come on. Gorgeous art and story! What's not to love? It's like two for the price of one.)

Maybe you should start with the more 'acclaimed' graphic novels, like Alan Moore's, maybe (I mean, his stuff has been made into movies) and tell them that hey! Superhero comics can get really deep, too! XD (Comic books and comic book writing are actually taught at my uni, and I've always always wanted to take those classes, which is one of the main reasons why I want to go back. ;__;)

[nerakrose]

i'm not sure i know what archie is, but if you link me a pic, i probably will XD

i didn't know x-men existed until the movies came. :P but the batman cartoon! it was the best. <3

tintin is still one of my favourites. it has issues, of course (lots of people talk about the racism in them) but i never noticed that? XD i just read them for the adventures. :D

two for one, that's exactly it :D

ahhhhhhhhhh i want to go to your university now! which uni is it? because you bet i'm going to look up how to get there on an exchange program now. :P

[epithalamium]

It's the one with these characters. XDD

There was a big craze about X-Men everything when the old cartoons came out, I re-watched the old episodes a while back and it's still amazing. <.< I mean, old art and all, but even my brother was hooked.

I never noticed the racism either. D: I guess when you're a kid that's not really an issue.

It's this one. I'm not sure about the other campuses, but I went to the main one in Diliman (they don't offer Creative Writing classes in the other campuses). XD (CL 171 is the class about comics--not sure if they offer this every term, because of the lack of professors. :P The comic book writing class is CW 180. Omg, just looking at the classes make me want to weep. I want to go back!) Haha, it would be amazing if you would! :D

[nerakrose]

that does look familiar. :D

well if the story is great, the art doesn't have to be spectacular :P

i think it had to do with how black people were drawn and portrayed? like in that comic book where tintin had to hunt down a totem that contained something invaluable.

ohhh awesome. :D *looks into* i have no idea if i can, but i had a quick look at my uni's exchange plans and there's not a single one with a university in the philippines *headdesk* so i'd have to set up the whole thing myself. it's probably doable though.... <.

[epithalamium]

Haha, yeah. It actually doesn't look too bad, considering these were early 90s cartoons. XD

I don't remember the particulars about the Tintin books anymore. I need to look into those again. <.<

Good luck! (My uni usually does exchange programs with other Asian countries, not sure about the rest of the world, though.) It can happen! :D

[nerakrose]

yeah. XD

that's the one i remember most of. and the one with the golden crab.

i looked into a couple of other unis and it looks like that's the norm. (the two other ones i looked at seemed to be super catholic and all. the sort that wants you to pray and shit <.<)

[epithalamium]

Mine's a state uni, so it's cheaper. XD And everyone seems to think we're all atheists and activists because no one really cares about what you believe in and stuff. My friends volunteered to man an event in the University of Sto. Tomas (built by Spanish friars ages ago) once, and they were pretty much culture shocked. :P The most memorable thing one said being, 'They actually walk on the sidewalk, man!' XD

[nerakrose]

hahaha that's hilarious XD

[lokifan]

This never occurred to me, and considering my dissertation was on a The Secret Garden as a Gothic novel (an adult genre) and genre theory and the attitude of adults to children's books, I FAIL. Very interesting!

I wonder if it's the amount of collaboration in fandom generally - Big Bangs/Reverse Big Bangs being a good example, of course - that allows for more illustration as opposed to more general fanart.

I wish there were more illustrations in adults' books!

[nerakrose]

Haha, I don't think you FAILed. :P It's just one more aspect that plays into the whole thing, and I assume you can't cover everything. I can't cover everything I want to in my bachelor's paper, at any rate, so I'm having to select what's most interesting for the paper at the cost of something else (and equally as valid). v.v

That could be. Within the context of fandom writings and artwork serve a different purpose than it does in "the real world", so there are different rules and different expectations. Collaborating with someone often means a new friendship, and sharing art and fiction means participating in a social discourse. Me reading a certain novel has little to no effect on my social life, unless I talk to someone about it. I don't know if it makes sense what I'm saying, because I'm not sure I completely understand what I'm saying myself. XD

Me too! I love illustrations. I admit it's often the reason why I read kiddie books. XD and it's a big part of the reason why I love comics so much.